Quitting CNC trade

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I went to school for CNC/Machining last 2 semesters. I had alot of fun learning and got excellent grades. The problem is... I'm 24 years old and have gotten "laidoff" 3 times in the past three months from these stupid f*cking machine shops. All these mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, trying to run an old skool thought of business.

The first supervisor I had was a douche bag, he knew nothing about me. I had to tell him that I went to school for machining. He didn't even know that much, even though the company paid for my scholarship. He was told by the owner to put me on a machine. I started (training) working with another new hire. The cycle time was long, 2-3 hours, so there was not much to do between those times.
I inspected parts my first couple of days. I felt bad for the guy i was working with because he had absolutely nothing to do. So i decided that he should do some inspection that day. Well, the supervisor came around to ask him what i had been doing all day (dumb-ass pollack) , said i "did nothing". After that day, my supervisor pulled me off and stuck me in assembly. At first, i figured he just didn't have work for me but i seen kids with no experience and no schooling were being trained as i was working bullsh*t jobs. He put me on machines here and there. Until one day, where he put me on a job, without giving me much explanation of how to do it properly. I made a simple mistake, the fixture for the part had to adjusted by hand for each part (no error proofing of job(lean thinking)). Made a few scrap parts, and was called in by the owner of the company, without warnings or a chance to even speak. The owner said he is laying me off.
I was pissed but kinda of relieved. Hoping for better opportunity, I was unemployed for about a month. Then, got a job with a medical manufacturer. Worked about a month, when I was talking with a coworker about another guy that has crashed a machine.I mentioned it to that worker, next thing I know, myself and my coworker got "laidoff". The kid was a rat, and I mean kid, 22 years old.
Then , i got another job with an aerospace manufacturer. They offered me night shift (12 hour). I said yes, cause i wanted to get in. Two weeks in, the hiring manager calls me in to say he doesn't believe I can do the job. Based on other workers "comments". Bullsh*t, i know i could have done the job. It's CNC , not thermonuclear engineering. The funny thing is, there was a guy working there who didn't know how to properly true a tool. He has been machining for 5 years! There was not much I could say, the manager had already made up his mind. Just like the previous jobs.
Well, i just wanted to *unload* all my frustration. I think the industry needs a major overhaul with it's business practices. All these old timers retiring, and the new guys don't have the same work ethic. I believe the industry had better adapt to these new hires. Or they will have no-one to run any machines.
Also, are machinists the only trade workers that are not confident enough or smart enough to start unions?
And, lean thinking is bull****. All it really does is benefit the company. None of these shops care about the workers. Times, have changed since the fifty's. Sons of owners have taken over these shops and all they are interested in is the profit margin. THEY DON"T CARE ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL WORKER!
So, F*CK you machine shops. I'm going off to lineman training in a couple weeks. They start at $22 an hour as an apprentice!, and a journeyman continues at $35 with plenty of overtime.

... Well, i just wanted to *unload* all my frustration...

Yes you did. Life lessons can be difficult.
Good Luck.

. It's CNC , not thermonuclear engineering. .

some are very successfull while many others are incapable of walking beyond button pushers , this isnt a trade for everyone

I don't think the problem is CNC vs. lineman work. During those 2-3 hour cycle times, did you clean up around your area or did you think you're too good for that because you went to school?

I don't think the problem is CNC vs. lineman work. During those 2-3 hour cycle times, did you clean up around your area or did you think you're too good for that because you went to school?

exactly
I had a guy who was fairly fresh out of school who thought he was smart , thought that he was above the work i gave him , refused to do the tasks that i ask him to do while he had a 45 munute cycle , so i threw him into the deburring dept for a week with the hopes he would appreciate the opportunity that we had placed in from of him , within a week of him being back on the machines his attitude was just as bad as ever , i had him out of the building immediately
and what the hell is lean about two guys standing around for three hours doing NOTHING

During those 2-3 hour cycle times, did you clean up around your area or did you think you're too good for that because you went to school?

It really doesn't matter If he was cleaning up between cycle times. How many times can a guy sweep/mop the same area around the same machine? I clean up around 2 machines, while they run in less than an hour, while checking parts & loading material.
Sounds like it's an issue with a leadman/supervisor being lazy, they know what the cycle times are, they should have something else for you to do (run 2 or more machines, etc...).
.

The new, educated kid is a threat. Their knowledge gives them confidence which makes it harder to be intimidated. ALL jobs can be a situation of power vs control.
The meek are easily intimidated. Easily knocked down and built up the way the old timers want. It is hard to have knowledge, be meek and still have the attitude necessary to get ahaed.
Having said that, why did the guy who unloaded make 3-4 bad parts WITHOUT asking for help?. Too much attitude? too much schooling? Too much "UofM" "I'm a degreed individual" attiude? Clearly the kid didn't know as much as he thought and he didn't "know it all". You fubar'd 3 BEFORE you found out about the setup trick??? I'd fire you for that on the spot as well.
No matter where you work, you have to EARN the respect of idiots, egomaniacs and just down right ignorant people. DEAL WITH IT. If you think for a minute that lineman are going to be any different, YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
FUBAR a machining, you lose some money for he owner. FUBAR with high power, you could get fried.
I started out with a similar attitude - by my thrid job, it took be 10 years to get run off.
Take my advice. LEarn to bite your tongue. Learn to ask for help even if it is NOT needed - you're less of a threat. You control your destiny, sometimes by what you day and do and toehr times what you DON"T do or say.
Rant all you went, point fingers at lean thinkers all you want, when you point a figner at them, theree are pointing back at you.

I don't care how much a fella learns in school, each and every position you fill will need it own skill set. Schools can teach the why for's, formula's how to use tools, machinery setup and operation, etc...
Every job you go to will require more experience On The Job. The Foreman should step you through what they expect once or twice anyway. No matter how you do something, it isn't going to be just the way they want it done every time.
To get anywhere to start with, you have to show initiative. This goes for just about any job. Show them that you want to make money for the Boss. If you have long cycle times, ASK what you can do in the meantime. It may be that you need to observe the machine. They may want you to help out somewhere else. You need to show the initiative though and realize once you've hit the start button, you are costing the man money if you aren't doing anything else.
Prove to them you are willing to do more. They would be more likely to keep you around.
They made the first move by hiring you. It's your move next.
Grab assing and gossip as well as *****in will or at least should get you fired from any place with machinery. It can be incredibly dangerous if your attention is not where it should be. In such cases, when guys are let go for these reasons, they are possibly saving someones life or limb.
The sooner these things are learned by a new worker, the sooner he or she will start climbing a ladder to higher pay and better benefits and may actually earn him or her some respect from Peers and management. Okay......maybe not management, but you get the idea.
Good luck on the high wire act. You'll likely be working directly under some of those same types of people there as well.

It really doesn't matter If he was cleaning up between cycle times. How many times can a guy sweep/mop the same area around the same machine? I clean up around 2 machines, while they run in less than an hour, while checking parts & loading material.
Sounds like it's an issue with a leadman/supervisor being lazy, they know what the cycle times are, they should have something else for you to do (run 2 or more machines, etc...).
.

I think you said it exactly right. Obviously, I cleaned and did everything i could out of respect for the supervisor and my new opportunity. However, there is only so much time you can clean and organize before you get to a point where you have absolutely nothing to do. The supervisor came around at all the wrong times. I was just standing there trying to think of something to do. I hate pretending to be busy, I feel like it is a huge waste of time. I love working hard and earning my paycheck.
And, yes I do feel like the supervisor was lazy. Just cause you work 50+ doesn't make you an A+ diligent worker. Some of these supervisors are running around back and forth between the experienced machinists leaving the new guys helpless. Why? I think cause they wanna feel responsible for all the parts in the shop. The experienced guys should be left to make their own decisions instead of having the supervisor make every decision for them.
Every machinist brings his own skills and abilities to the shop floor. The supervisor should be making decisions about where each person belongs (updating over time). I don't think a supervisor should be an uber-machinist who needs to run every machine.

I don't think a supervisor should be an uber-machinist who needs to run every machine.

who do you think is the first guy standing in front of the fan when Sh$% hits it , your supervisor thats who , then after having a strip tore of of him because of your screw up he's usually the same guy who comes back to you with a slight smile and says don't sweat it , we'll make another one .theres more going on with that guy than you would like to know
new guys tend to be put on non critical jobs , and are left alone to see if they are capable of doing the job themselves , noone wants to overwhelm the new guy with info , also information travels far better from a fellow employee than it does from the boss , we used to set new guys with one of the senior employees , this way the intimidation factor is much less if the new guy has a question
doesn t matter where you go the boss may be good he may be bad , but the boss is the boss and he has earned that , and youve got to show that respect if you want to have that job someday
plus who's cutting the cheque and who needs it

The new, educated kid is a threat. Their knowledge gives them confidence which makes it harder to be intimidated. ALL jobs can be a situation of power vs control.
The meek are easily intimidated. Easily knocked down and built up the way the old timers want. It is hard to have knowledge, be meek and still have the attitude necessary to get ahead.
Having said that, why did the guy who unloaded make 3-4 bad parts WITHOUT asking for help?. Too much attitude? too much schooling? Too much "UofM" "I'm a degreed individual" attiude? Clearly the kid didn't know as much as he thought and he didn't "know it all". You fubar'd 3 BEFORE you found out about the setup trick??? I'd fire you for that on the spot as well.
FUBAR a machining, you lose some money for he owner.
Take my advice. LEarn to bite your tongue. Learn to ask for help even if it is NOT needed -

Very insightful thought about the new guy being a threat. This lesson I learned.
As for making scrap parts. I wasn't given a setup sheet, or dimensions, or tolerances. He just showed me what to do and left me alone. I didn't realize i was making scrap parts till the next op guy came over to tell me. It was a, "make me busy doing a crappy job" situation.
Losing money for the owner is old skool thinking. I will tell you why... We don't live in the industrial age any more. From http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...hots_20060621/
"In 2005, the average CEO in the United States earned 262 times the pay of the average worker, the second-highest level of this ratio in the 40 years for which there are data. In 2005, a CEO earned more in one workday (there are 260 in a year) than an average worker earned in 52 weeks." "In 1965, U.S. CEOs in major companies earned 24 times more than an average worker"
I can hardly support my family on a machinist salary but i need to be concerned about how much richer I'm making the owner? The difference is, when these guys grandfathers started the shops, they treated employees almost as part owners of the company.
I don't believe in the notion of "steal from the rich and give to the poor". But, i do believe in dignity.
And, i did bite my tongue. That's probly what got me into trouble in the first place. Should have spoken up (which i did partially on my review papers). In the end though, no warnings, no sitdowns, no verbal warnings. Nothing. Nada. Just the "step into my office" and "you're FIRED". Didn't even want to hear what i had to say.

who do you think is the first guy standing in front of the fan when Sh$% hits it , your supervisor thats who , then after having a strip tore of of him because of your screw up he's usually the same guy who comes back to you with a slight smile and says don't sweat it , we'll make another one .theres more going on with that guy than you would like to know
doesn t matter where you go the boss may be good he may be bad , but the boss is the boss and he has earned that , and youve got to show that respect if you want to have that job someday
plus who's cutting the cheque and who needs it

I understand the supervisor gets S$*t. I understand his plea as well. So think about it. Who is his boss? The owner. The owner is just interested in profits. I'm just trying to warn the incoming generation of machinists, get unionized, quick! By the way, my boss didn't smile, he threw the part across the way and yelled "this is a f*cking scrap part".
Earned his job? Doing what? Putting up with his boss's crap before his time? Shouldn't the perfect candidate be best educated, best skilled? This guy was calling dial calipers "verniers". His original Bachelors degree had nothing to do with the industry. Who else earned it? The owner? He was born into it, all the hard work was done for him. That is the reason he has no respect for YOU.
Who cares about who cuts the cheque? I'm offering my services too. I'm paying the owner with my time. Think about it that way. It is an exchange. You make it seem like the owner has more value as a human being than i do, just cause he has a higher net worth. Where would these companies be, if not for the workers?

Earned his job? Doing what? Putting up with his boss's crap before his time? Shouldn't the perfect candidate be best educated, best skilled? This guy was calling dial calipers "verniers". His original Bachelors degree had nothing to do with the industry.
Who cares about who cuts the cheque? I'm offering my services too. I'm paying the owner with my time. Think about it that way. It is an exchange. You make it seem like the owner has more value as a human being than i do, just cause he has a higher net worth. Where would these companies be, if not for the workers?

noone is suggesting anyone is subhuman , my comments may appear backhanded but i dont appreciate someone suggesting machinists aren t smart enough to start a union , thats an insult to most people here on the forum .
I was a supervisor and i earned that position through experience and my attitude toward my work , i was the guy who stood in front of the boss covering guys ass's after they would scrap parts that were worth thousands apiece , and by the time i was done the boss was calm enough to talk to the employee to get their side of the story , these guys didnt know or need to know what i did to help them in my opinion ,it was my job to do that , these were the same guys who would point their finger at me and call me an as#h(^ for getting them to do their job , the same guys who would knife me in the back to cover their butt . Same guys who pushed me to the point that the boss had to step in a number of times because i was going to beat the life out of them
the stress of the job took its toll on my everyday life and eventually my health , I quite the job and i will never do that again , i am happy going into work to do my job and i no longer have to deal with a bunch of self rightious AsH%%^ ever again
like i said in reference to the supervisor "theres more going on with that guy than you would like to know"
it boils down to respect on both sides , you owe the boss an honest days work for an honest days pay

"Losing money for the owner is old skool thinking. I will tell you why... We don't live in the industrial age any more. From http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshot...hots_20060621/ "
If you are standing around for even a half hour cycle time, then you are loosing the company money. Old school? Maybe so, but this still holds true.
It certainly could be a supervisor issue for sure, but more than likely, it was a test to see what you would do to find something to do.
The CEO's or the Boss isn't going to actually personally loose money if they have supers who will weed out the ones costing them the most clock time. That narrows their losses.
On the other hand, it is the ones who are always working when the super comes around that will get raised the quickest.
You won't get rich fast being a machinist or anything else right out of school. It takes time and experience to get good at anything. Luck plays only a very small part of being at the right place at the right time or the right person for the new position that just opened.
If you have been a good hard worker and spent some time in a position and have yet to be noticed, question them as to policy.
I have been hired back twice by two different companies that neglected to raise me when we had agreed upon. I gave them notice and quit. Both times within two days, they wanted me back. I also got paid for those two days I did not work.
Become indispensable if possible. Hard to do in some jobs. Always take up for yourself and speak up especially if you feel you have been overlooked or wronged. No one else will do that for you.

I"m the owner and boss of my shop.
My cams are mostly all custom one off billets. "Scrap" one and I"m out nearly $1200. not counting salaries and overhead. And to make the insult worse, I have to pay you AGAIN to remake what you f/u'd and maybe do so on O/T for time sensitive part. Did you ever think about that?
I also can recall when I started out anew. Even though it was over 30 years ago.
Tis why I don't yell at people when I'm mad. My anger is expressed in soft, monotone. They know when I whisper, I'm REAL mad. I"m almost anal on setup. Result: we don't make scrap and my guys kick a$$ to please.
Old time machine shops are run by old time people with old time attitudes. That's how they were taught. They know no better, they know no different. Look at it like when you first get married. I'm sure there were days you caught hell for leaving the toilet seat up. Machine shops are no different. THey don't take kindly to book smart people who try to tell them how to do things they worked a lifetime to make a go of.
It is harder and harder for "old time" shops to prosper because of "old time ways'. HOWEVER, the "kids' who come in aren't always the brightest bulbs on the tree. Their degree says so, their performance says otherwise.
Old time machinists know tons of tricks on how to do things. I worked with some 20+ year vets. I was the smart a$$ engineer - they were the shop rats - they taught me, I learned form them. I, in turn taught them some new ideas and we hashed things out sometimes over a few, very few, beers.
You have good points, but they have a lifetime of experience. Treachery and old age with experience will generally overcome youth and enthusiam. Why? we made your mistakes and more as we've got a HUGE head start over you in the live and learn dept.
HINT did you ASK before you made chips if the part had any setup tricks? probably not. You wanted to show how smart you were. Boss's aspect: smart ass know it all, we'll see what happens.
Result" you made scrap, three times. Really did a bang up job of showing how smart you were. Get the picture yet?. YOu were on probabtion and EVERYTHING you did put you into the "step into my office" position at any moment. YOu don't realize it but that's what bosses do. They test you with tests they went thru - pass you stay, miss too many goals, you get the boot..
YOu may be very smart, You simply didn't show it. The boss has probably had his fill of trade school "Mensa's" - you were more proof that such "kids are a worthless POS".
If it were your shop, what would you have done? Ok, so it isn't and he didn't, get over it. You had your rant. WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT YOUR DEFICIENCIES that helped contribute to the scenario??? Trust me dude, it is as much if not more your fault as to what happened versus your lame boss's. Why? he still collects a paycheck, you don't. Unfair? Get over that because life isn't.
You learned or should have learned several lessons. THings happen for a good reason. Chill out, learn form your mistakes. Even those you didn't make
Did you ask if the part was a Mil spec part? (MIL-TFP 4.1) = make it like the f'ing print for once).
I can go on and on. Do matter what reason/excuse you may nave, I'll have more combacks. I was in your shoes and paid your price for essentialy the same "youthful enthusiasm". I was lucky enought to have some folks set me down and "splain" tings to me. Next time, ask for help, even if you don't need it.
WHile your at it, read the thread here that goes into "would you share your knowledge".
Lots of expereicne to be gained there. Small shops have lots of "toilet seat has to be down momenst" Actually EVERY place I worked had the same mentality. My shop has the same one as "my house, my rules".
WHen you earn enough working for people that you can buy/create your own shop, then you can be the a$$hole boss that you are biiitching about. Rank and liIfe have their privileges.

We have heard one side of three different situations from you. You being the common denominator in all three, see where this is going........
After reading a few of you ?descriptive? phrases. ?All these mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, trying to run an old skool thought of business. ? ?stupid f*cking machine shops ? ?mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, ?.
I think I can tell you with some certainty where the problem is. You look at it each morning when you shave.
Being the new guy on the block with a ?attitude? is the quickest way to get your butt handed to you by the ?old skool? that I know of. Does not matter how smart you are (or think you are). Happens everyday in all workplaces, it is not unique to machine shops.

We have heard one side of three different situations from you. You being the common denominator in all three, see where this is going........
After reading a few of you ?descriptive? phrases. ?All these mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, trying to run an old skool thought of business. ? ?stupid f*cking machine shops ? ?mother f*ckers (supervisors) are old ass sh*ts, ?.
I think I can tell you with some certainty where the problem is. You look at it each morning when you shave.
Being the new guy on the block with a ?attitude? is the quickest way to get your butt handed to you by the ?old skool? that I know of. Does not matter how smart you are (or think you are). Happens everyday in all workplaces, it is not unique to machine shops.

Okay, okay. I'm humbled now. Was just trying to vent some of my frustration. Didn't mean to use such terms, was just doing some drinking when I wrote it (been bottling it up for a while, without having someone to listen).
Thanks for all your input everybody. Seems like you guys care at least a little, enough to respond. So maybe, I will reconsider quitting but I think I'm running out of places to work at in my area.
I think machining is alot of fun and rewarding, especially compared to my previous jobs. I just wish i could stop making all these mistakes. At first, i was very naive, but i thought i learned that lesson. I hate blaming other people but it is frustrating when no one person tells me or even gives me a hint about what I might be doing wrong.
I love to follow directions, if ...they are given to me. I have utmost respect for senior authority... until i keep getting pushed around. I love to learn... when someone is willing to teach.
I know im just the new kid on the block but I would like to see some changes in the industry though. I think it would be very beneficial to companies if they could atleast hear out some of us new guys.
I've been in 3 different shops so far and none had a formal training program. They all had training for Quality but not for actual production work. I would like to see training documented and logged for us newbies. So both parties could know where each worker is and where he is going. What happened to actual apprenticeships anyway? Nowadays, it feels like they just throw you on a machine and it is swim or sink. I would have loved to actually have trained with a veteran.
I would love to ask my supervisor questions, but how can i do that if i know he is always busy? Most of what I learned was in no way formal. I just had to watch other people and pick it up as I go. I'm not stupid either, but i do need to stop and think about every step that i take. I don't wanna be crashing a $30k machine, or worse $200k. For most senior machinists, every step is second nature. Programmed muscle memory and brain. Also, you gotta understand that these guys, when they started, they started working on bridgeports and manual lathes. They have had time to learn all those skills (actual chip cutting that you can "feel" and "see" )for many years, and watch the transition over the generations to CNC. Us new guys, did some minor projects at school and then we are thrown on a CNC.
When I learn something new I like to share it with someone. They say it's the best way to learn yourself. I do however, sometimes, have that ego that wants to hold in my knowledge and not share it. Maybe it makes me feel more powerful or something. So, I do understand when some vets don't wanna share their hard earned knowledge after many years of trial and error. And, you don't have to. But, I can speak for all the new guys out there and say that you will gain our respect. We do look up to you. If I'm learning more compared to the next new guy who do you think I'm going to thank? You. I will have the opportunity for advancement and raises. Neither am I going to go over your head. I would have to much respect for you by that point.

If the guy was calling dial calipers verniers, that means verniers were still used when he started (40 yrs ago?) and you need to listen to him, not the other way around. You seem teachable. If you seek a mentor, you will find him. The first thing I'd do is put all your suggestions on the shelf and earn some credibility. That is the natural order. Then you'll be listened to and your suggestions will be better. By the way, why shouldn't an owner be interested in profits? Do you want to run a loser business? When I came to Michigan, I was three years into a Mechanical Engineering degree. I had been working in engines since I was 12 and I wanted to dyno test engines in the worst way. Guess when I had to do for a month? Scrape paint off cinder block walls for the new dyno cell at $7.00/hr. Then, I got to test engines make power runs. It is not the owner's job to think about how efficiently you are learning. It's your job to make him money. Who gave you ideas to the contrary?
David

davereagan "Who gave you ideas to the contrary? "
Obama did. Joking... kinda

Ah. You can take this thread as part of learning. Break most of it down and it is a new guy handbook, so to speak. I am pretty much a jack of all trades. Not really though. This is just a term to mean well versed in many areas. I learned what I know from experience and watching others that actually know what they are doing. Some that didn't as well, but I learn from that too.
If there was something I didn't understand about what was expected of me, I asked questions. Guys were always willing to share answers since they knew I had a desire to learn as much as I could to get better at what I do.
I have been in a few supervisory roles and there is much more to supering and management than meets the eyes of the average worker.
Also by the time you are supervising, you know what to look for in both good and bad employees.
I always gave them the benefit of the doubt, but again, attitude plays a big role here as well.
How well does the person take direction?
Understand directions? Etc.
I took all these things into consideration before letting someone go.
Mistakes are made every day even by professionals.
How they handle the criticism and fix what caused the error is the difference between a good or not so good employee.
Good luck in whatever you choose to do.
Keep lurking around here and posting.
I have ran some manual machinery before coming here a few years back. I have since built and competed my third cnc machine.
Everything I know about CNC started with this site.

First lesson - take anything written while under the influence of alcohol and save it to disk. Read it when sober and ask yourself "does this make me look good or stupid?".Fix it accordingly.
You could walk into my shop with a Phd. in CNC and you would not run it - at least not without proving that you could. Paid too much for the damn machine and I know you are not going to even offer to fix it in the event of a crash.
Your pond is getting smaller and smaller. If you want to swim in it, take the hints/suggestions and make a plan to address them all. You don't have to bother the boss with nagging questions - maybe just a got a minute type. Wanna bet he'll take 20?
Or even a "is there a special way you want me to do this?"
I had "my ways" all over the place with my/our cams. My guys came up with suggestions AFTER they showed me their proposed changes. They even found some ways to "do this" in ways I found clever and imaginative.
Example. aftermarket diametral tolerances of cam journals are 0.001 to 0.002. We hold 0.0005. On special order, we can hold 0.0003 (edit) and if we know the temp of your shop, hold the three in our shop which is kept cool in winter and meet spec in your 78 deg shop across town.
That takes care and knowledge of how to grind. NOBODY is gonna walk in and do that out of trade school. I can't even do it and I taught the kid who runs the grinder how to grind cams. He's earned my trust - hes' had his OOPS moments.
BTW, did you ask why you got canned? They owed you that. If not, maybe it was a fit not to be...
You've probably had enough well meaning criticism. HINT: let your note sit for a couple days and read it as if you did NOT write it, if you can. Did you like what you saw? If not, what would you do about it??? WOUld you want that guy working for you. TOugh love can be quite helpful and you won't find/get a lot of sympathy here.

guess it's not for you

Supra , what were your reasons for choosing this trade?
have you heard of the word "crusty" in any of the trades you may have worked?
This refers to the old ******* simply have experience .hardened by experience(priceless)
most importantly the fact they still have 10 fingers and 10 toes, if not, and are still in the trade they are hard individuals, a cog in the wheel , i.e. team player.If we look at your L.O.T (logical order of thinking) there is alot of I comments, statements, rants about you not we or my company.
anyway experience and time makes us all a little "crusty".
take control
Justin

Supra... the stuff you have typed sounds like what had going through my head during the early points of my jump into manufacturing. All I can say now from experience.... bite your tongue, and keep your ears open. Often you definitely will learn something.... other times you'll save your ass by keeping the yapper shut. Also, people are more willing to share if they find you receptive to what they have to say... If you really were thrown into that situation to run scrap... well it does suck. But, don't ever ever run parts without a print, I don't know why on gods green earth anyone would allow you to do it in the first place.
Maybe there is someone around that shop who you *could* learn from if given the opportunity. My first job out of college (which was for a very well known and respected Jap machine tool builder), with a four year MET degree got stuck with a "crap" job. Gopher boy, go fetch parts, clean coolant tank, *clean* the "clean room", I occasionally got to build spindles which was what I was supposed to be doing in that job. I probably did that for two months till it ended and I actually got to do the spindles full time, no more gophering and cleaning. I showed up every day and didn't *****, but they knew I didn't like it. Pretty much a test, as well as learning how to build different spindles properly without being thrown into all of it at once. After that I got to go over to the Machining facility, where I was told I would take classes to program their machines. Well... I got to take the classes, 6 months later . In the mean time I got stuck with a "crusty" old guy. He kinda smelled, had bad teeth, and was pretty much a complete hillbilly upon a first impression. At first I thought, "oh F'N A! This is complete Bull****"... I was wrong. That "crusty hillbilly" taught me everything, there wasn't a lot he couldn't do on a CNC machine. Then I got to take classes... by that time I didn't need them. Point being... keep your mouth shut and ears open... pretty much what my Dad told way back when. Seemed to go a long way for me being a guy out of school who thought along similar lines as yourself. That job taught me a lot.
Also..."I'm offering my services too. I'm paying the owner with my time". Maybe its potato/patato... BUT, the owner is the one doing the paying, and you are selling. You're selling your ability to produce an acceptable product... make it worth his while. What he makes at the end of the day... well... shouldn't be a concern of yours unless you're costing him money. (read: Job Security). The graphs about how much more money the boss makes than an average employee... won't do much to further your career. Might be sometime that drives a decision to open your own business someday once you have learned all the tricks of the trade from the crusty old timers. Owning a biz isn't all sugarplums and fairytales. Try signing the dotted line for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth (or much more) of machine tools and inspection equipment to produce parts for customers.... they won't pay or order parts if they come in as scrap... those are thoughts running through is head... its a different line of thinking in his head.
All you can really do in any job starting out is take the opportunities you can do learn as much as you can and put that knowledge to good use. Sounds like you may have gotten a bad shake on that one possibly.
Anyways, good luck in whatever you decide to do.

.. Too much attitude? too much schooling? Too much "UofM" "I'm a degreed individual" attiude?

How does a UofM graduate screw in a light bulb?
They hold on to the light bulb and let the world revolve around them.
I once worked with a UofM graduate. They had to increase the size of the doors to allow his ego to fit through.
A person that thinks they know it all is a specially annoying to those of us that do.

More U of M
1 Was looking for a kied to do some reprogramming from Lotus 123 into Excel. Rason, the program I had inculed a bunch of VB that didn't work in Excel via a simple import. THis kid from UofM calls in respose to workd I"d put out. Starts telling me how it will impore even though he'd NEVER seen the program, Then goes on to say the "who doesn't have Excel?".
I go on to explain that a lot of people have Auatro Pro and others have Lotus 123 and that if he goes to work, he may HAVE do use somthiing other thatn Excel. He seemed shocked when I said "Just becasue UofM does it that way, doesn't mean EVERYBODY does it that way". Get real kid.
2 Second kid comes to work from UofM. Supposed to be some kind of merit scholar. Gave hime some SIMPLE stuff to look up - he was helpless/cluelsss. Finally showed him EXACTLY waht to look up and in what books and were to find them at UoM ligrary. He came back with wrong stuff ut of the rigth book. Took him 3 days to do a 1 afternon project.
And the idiiot asked for a job reference after fubaring things as bad as he did.
I don't know where or how they grow people that way but they somehow feel that the world does revovle around them. If you can't do it, TEACH IT in a university..

The op went to school studied and went to work with the best of intentions. It is not his fault his experience was so negative.

Gotta laugh at this one, since I can relate with the frustration, as many of us have had to learn the hard way too.

Fast forward 30+ years,
I've been in shops where there were some 2 semester book learned "machinists" that had much the same attitude coming in the door. With all their clueless wisdom of how things needed changing to accommodate the way it was taught them. Wishing for a Union that would cover their butt when they get it in a sling.....through no fault of their own.
As if 6 months in a technical overview course places them on par with those industrialists running a profitable business. It shouldn't matter how the ownership got there or how much money they make. If that is where you aspire to be at some point, shut up and observe. The over eager demanding newb has much to learn and it won't help to display attitude or body language that inhibits meaningful communication between Superiors and trainees. Knowing your bounds and gaining a sense of your own limitations is a golden rule to retaining gainful employment. Spouting off on how smart you are and how dumb everyone else must be, is a sure method of being put on the outside looking in......repeatedly. Expecting a different result is no lesson learned.
Knowing what button to push, reading a print and how to use measuring tools is only scrapping the surface of the required skill in this industry. It takes a plethora of conditioning and exposure over many years to obtain a level of craftsmanship to use those skills effectively and efficiently in order to become indispensable.
Cut and run gains you nothing but it does show a propensity for irresponsible self serving vindication no matter where you end up. Getting out from under that black cloud takes some internalized soul searching. Unfortunately as a trainee, respect and expectation is a one way street until worth is proven.
You hint at many things about what is wrong with your line of thinking in a ranting post blaming the authority and professionalism of those for whatever reason, no longer willing to put up with you.
It would also be fascinating to hear their side of these stories....
DC

After reading the thread and seeing part of myself in the OP I feel the need to throw this out there too. Just because a business does something some particular way, that does not always mean that is the best way, or even proper way to do it. That may have been the way they have done it for the past 30 years, and it may work for them. However, if every time someone has a new idea of how to do something, they just say no, this is how we have done it for the past 30 years and that's how were going to do it. I feel that's pretty short sighted, and have seen that myself. They saw that improvement I suggested too.. as I was working out my 2 weeks before heading to a place where new ideas weren't quashed, and not everyone had a "Im self tought and this is how everyone here should do it cause its the way I figured out how to do it and thus the best way" attitude. In my case it would have been different if they had responded that they had tried that and it didn't work, but no, they just didn't know any better. In this particular case, I was right, and productivity was increased, the customer had fewer problems, turnaround time decreased, and all was better. I guess what I am really saying is new guys try to learn from the old guys, old guys, listen to what the newbie has to say, they may not be as dumb as you think they are. Oh, and don't make suggestions for the first month or two, until you have a good idea of how everything there works.

i agree that companies should always be open to ideas but at the same time i firmly believe that if the boss disagrees and says he wants it done a certain way then i do it that way period . bottom line is if i tell him that a particular setup or whatever isnt going to work and he says he wants it done anyway then i do it , if it screws up then the boss already knew the risk and most times will take the responsibility for that , if i do it my way instead and screw it up , then i am %100 responsible

^ditto
Also
When you are the boss of the business, you also have a boss to answer to. When the customer (BOSS) wants something done that I feel will not work for its intended use, I try to gently let them know my opinion, if they insist and it doesn't work I get paid to do it twice.
Funny because after I "argue" with the customer then I have to "argue" with my employees because they can see that it won't work as well (lol) "just do it man" is the best response.

I went to school for CNC/Machining last 2 semesters........

Then , i got another job with an aerospace manufacturer. They offered me night shift (12 hour). I said yes, cause i wanted to get in. Two weeks in, the hiring manager calls me in to say he doesn't believe I can do the job. Based on other workers "comments". Bullsh*t, i know i could have done the job. It's CNC , not thermonuclear engineering. The funny thing is, there was a guy working there who didn't know how to properly true a tool. He has been machining for 5 years! There was not much I could say, the manager had already made up his mind. Just like the previous jobs.

Keep in mind that after two semesters you may not be up to par with what the "other workers comments" consider to be someone who truely knows the ins and outs.

Some of the other guys on here have given you some advice, I'm going to offer my two cents also. I'm twenty-four years old. I turned my first part when I was four in my grandfathers machine shop, and haven't looked back since.
Still, even though I truely have 20 years of experience in the trade, I still catch hell from the senior guys. Why? Because the majority of them still do it better! I learn new things every day, some on my own, and even more from working side by side with the guys who have been there and done that.
The easiest and fastest way to Splitsville with any of these machine shops is being combative, or nasty, not knowing when to shut up, and not knowing when to speak up.

You said the parts you scrapped had no set up sheets, etc. You should've never hit the go button with out knowing what it was doing and how it was doing it. Regardless of how smart we are, we are still the "idiot" when we scrap parts, plain and simple.

As for paying the owner with your time: Now that I'm part owner of a business, I can say the majority, not all, but the majority of people running shops got there because they know what they are doing. I don't need someone to pay me with their time. I as well as my three other business partners are well and capable of doing everything we hired our workforce to do.

And please, for the sake of our generation, think before you speak (or type). I've read too many articles of older generations saying how lazy we are as a whole, and how our trade is going to falter. Ranting about "stupid f***ing mother f***ers" only reinforces those feelings, and gives those of us trying to null those feelings a bad name.

First off my friend, that schooling you have got you in the door, but hardly guarantees you get to stay. You have to produce, and impress, and be humble and studious and eager and then you might even get a raise.
While you where standing around with your entitled finger up your ass, where you reading the owners, operations, service and parts manual for your machine? If not why not? You should have this **** down pat, backwards and forwards.
Asking your supervisor a question? You should be showing him! Where's the fire? Training? Show some freakin initiative and immerse yourself in the knowledge, and then pass it on to others on your own dime. Tote some water instead of standing there drinking it.
Why are you not the go-to guy? Might have something to do with be spoiled, lazy and entitled with an altogether crappy attitude.
Find the fire in the belly or go do something else that you can be passionate about.

Save it. I think he's gone

Save it. I think he's gone

I wonder if he was another one of those who was just having us on?

No, could have been the heat in the kitchen!
DC

No, could have been the heat in the kitchen!
DC

Okay, how many people recognize the allusion and can identify the President without resorting to Google (like I had to do).

Dunno which President you are talking about. We refer to our new leader as O'Comandant! How much better than community college qualified.......is above MY pay grade.
DC

Dunno which President you are talking about....
DC

President Truman is attributed with saying: "If you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen"
That may not be exactly correct, here are a couple of links from Google:
http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/ifyoucantsta.html
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/g...e-kitchen.html

Oh, that President. I was thinking you inferred to the OP actual identity! The parallel in qualifications seemed apt at first glance.
DC

All i can add is my cheap 2 cents... live and learn. The machine shops I have worked at have had average to high employee turn over rates. Machine shop work isn't for everyone. I can say +10 on new employees, and even longer term employees keeping their mouths shut. Gossip and trash talk do tend to lead to the door. I've seen guy's get fired for next to nothing, and i've seen them get fired for repititive bad parts. I've come close myself on a few occasions over the years to getting fired for making a bad part.
Once i trashed the tolerance on a Boeing 737 compressor part - a case bearing liner. Since i knew i had overcut the liner bore i decided to cut the liner out and then have the part sent back to assembly to have a new liner installed. The problem was there were no new blank liners in the shop anywhere. I opened up the bore .00015" over tolerance. I got my ass chewed by the shop supervisor. I made the mistake only once. As it turned out I shouldn't have cut the liner out of the part.... .00015" was within "allowable" tolerances. My supervisor got chewed out for it, lucky for all of us Honeywell had a new, spare liner locally. That one almost got me fired, especially since i barked back at my supervisor saying the liner i overcut was no good and that is why i had cut it out. My bad - lesson learned and almost the hard way. I agree sometimes you have to bite your tongue, because as much as you think you know what's up, you may not know.
Just chalk it all up as lessons, learn from them and move forward We all have bad days, just remember the lesson and start new the next day.

All i can add is my cheap 2 cents... live and learn. The machine shops I have worked at have had average to high employee turn over rates. Machine shop work isn't for everyone. I can say +10 on new employees, and even longer term employees keeping their mouths shut. Gossip and trash talk do tend to lead to the door. I've seen guy's get fired for next to nothing, and i've seen them get fired for repititive bad parts. I've come close myself on a few occasions over the years to getting fired for making a bad part.
Once i trashed the tolerance on a Boeing 737 compressor part - a case bearing liner. Since i knew i had overcut the liner bore i decided to cut the liner out and then have the part sent back to assembly to have a new liner installed. The problem was there were no new blank liners in the shop anywhere. I opened up the bore .00015" over tolerance. I got my ass chewed by the shop supervisor. I made the mistake only once. As it turned out I shouldn't have cut the liner out of the part.... .00015" was within "allowable" tolerances. My supervisor got chewed out for it, lucky for all of us Honeywell had a new, spare liner locally. That one almost got me fired, especially since i barked back at my supervisor saying the liner i overcut was no good and that is why i had cut it out. My bad - lesson learned and almost the hard way. I agree sometimes you have to bite your tongue, because as much as you think you know what's up, you may not know.
Just chalk it all up as lessons, learn from them and move forward We all have bad days, just remember the lesson and start new the next day.

I appreciate the honesty and frankness of your post. Yes, trash talkling destroys a shops sense of unity and getting things done. It should not be part of your work environment. And communication is vitally important too; it appears you undertook a corrective action before you consulted with your supervisor, it is always best to check first and a shop supervisor/ manager should be even more professional when an employee brings an error to their attention. A shop should not be a place of yelling and abuse- it should be a place of accomplishment and pride.

OK, after reading this post, i couldn't resist, I'm gona have to throw in my own 2 cents.. first of all ... your all right .. machine shop is "NOT" for everyone .. I've been doing this crap for the better part of 30 years now and in that time I've probably toured some 50 different shops ... some for a few years .. and others for only a few hours.. there's an old saying "your only as good as your last cut " and that my friends is as true as it gets..Over all this trade truly sucks .. Its rated as the number one most stressful occupation you can have, you'll spend a life time learning all you can to realize there isn't enough time in a life time to learn it all, You'll never earn what your worth and will forever be pushed to do the impossible for the ungrateful ( and god help you if you screw it up ) . the guy working next to you will smile at you while he's cutting your throat trying to save his own job and the entire industry is over run by illegal immigrants who depress wages to unbearable levels and don't even speak English... that being said you may ask why you do this job? simply stated, its a labor of love. Yes, its true, we can all lock our box's and go work doing something else .. i know guys holding a road sign making twice the top wage of any machinist in the country, but wheres the challenge in that? As machinists we have something those people don't have. The ability to create anything that enters our crazy little brains and rise to the level of "owner" .. you cant climb the ladder any higher than that and i'll tell ya something .. its a pretty nice view from up here ...

how do you manage to rise to the level of owner if your wage basically pays the rent, the car and feeds the kids, and every few years you get laid off ? I think things were better in other days.

how do you manage to rise to the level of owner if your wage basically pays the rent, the car and feeds the kids, and every few years you get laid off ? I think things were better in other days.

Well... for 1 ... you "stop" looking at whats holding you back and start looking at opportunities ... is it easy? .. HELL NO ... if it were everyone would do it.. its all about your priorities ... that 50 bucks you spent going out for a night weather to the movies or just picking up a pizza is where it all starts. ask yourself, do you really need that "new" car your paying on or will an older used 1 you paid cash for do the job? do you pay 5 bucks for a cup of starbucks or do you brew your own ? ... its all about you and your decisions .. you can pick up a used CNC mill and lathe for under 10K and start up in your garage ... even if you don't have a garage find a buddy who does and partner up with him/her ... you wont get any sympathy from me .. as far as I'm concerned .. if you haven't done it is simply because you don't want it bad enough.

Well... for 1 ... you "stop" looking at whats holding you back and start looking at opportunities ... is it easy? .. HELL NO ... etc

Ooh, when I gave replies like that I got flak from people who figured I was being too tough.
I wonder when the 'better other days' were. Back in the 1980's maybe when I started in late 1980 then went broke in early 1982 when a big recession hit in Canada. It is not easy starting your own operation and there is no guarantee you will succeed if you try but the only way to find out is to do it. Maybe you need to work two jobs, even three like I did one summer and existed on five hours of sleep per night.

Ok this is going to sound harsh so please take it as constructive criticizm
The first thing I noticed about the first post is that it was filled with frusteration and was a vent as best. If you think you can walk into a shop and bs like your flipping a burger and talk about others behind their back or think your king S hit you have another thing coming. This is a very serious trade with no room for errors. You have admitted in your post that you told the supervisor you were doing nothing, talked behind someones back on the second job and on the third did a poor setup routine and crashed a fixture. It sounds to me like yours skills and attitude may be the problem. Granted you will get the newbie hat for a while and may have to deal with a little hazzing if you get into the right job you will love the trade. Not many trades have a level of professionalism like machining.
And just remember that not everyone needs schooling to run a CNC or to setup. I was taught by a machinist who would have been considered a master. I never went to formal machining or cnc school yet I own a very successfull company with many cnc machines and program and setup almost everything. I have alittle brother that has schooled for machining and many friends who came out of mold making school that make simple errors when edge finding a part.
Biggest thing is hang in there and look around. Dont ever be cocky coming into a new environment it is percieved as a weakness. A little confidence but more than anything put that nose to the grindstone boy!
Good luck

just read this guys first post - unreal !!!. See how his attitude changes when he pays for the machinery,tooling,material and wasted labour to produce scrap parts. Yes - he should care if he makes money for his employer , because if he is not - just like a busted slot drill - throw it away. This is a very simple - basic - understanding we should have - no one is owed a job.
I am only 35 and have my own shop and have given up on apprentices because they all want to work 2 hrs a day , have a cleaner follow them , allready know it all , and be paid $1000 per week.
when i did my time -I valued my apprenticship and worked hard to keep it. Yes i stuffed up , but i soon learnt not to be caught with nothing to do !!

I can appreciate the frustration the first poster vented.
No matter the job, it is never just you and the machine; you have to deal with people.
Try to always think before engaging mouth. That can be hard to do sometimes.
Some folks just don’t have the social skills and need to develop them to interact with people effectively, if at all. Learning to bite your tongue most of the time is not kissing ass. It gives you time to consider what you should do and to do it logically not from emotion. It is a fool who runs their mouth. The work place is not the place to rant or socialize.
Here is the point of this post:
Some of the most uncommunicative, cantankerous, raggedly looking, and unexpectedly knowledgeable men, who worked at seemingly simple tasks, taught me some of the best and wisest “tricks & methods” in all aspects of troubleshooting, build and repair of equipment. Even a guy you consider a drunk or a dumb boatswain’s mate can teach you some thing you did not know. It might take years before you even recognize what he taught you.
Never think that you are smarter than the next guy. You need to be open to learning no mater how smart you are, from anybody who has something to teach you.
You will be amazed at some of the things you can learn from working with someone else, even someone you don’t like.
Your job is not your life or define who you are, work to live, not live to work.
(Thank you George for teaching me so much about building machine tools. Have another drink on me you old reprobate. RIP)

All i can say is grow up. 2 semesters of some BS cnc coarse still makes you almost worthless. So you felt sorry for the inspector and let him do the work you were assigned to do ? Then told a shop manager i did nothing? I would have fired you on the spot right there. His job was to oversee you and make sure things were ok, not for you to decide what you felt like doing. Machining can suck. Most job shops suck. If a large aerospace company hires you, then lets you go two weeks later, its time to look at yourself. We all started out as some BS shop helper, debur hand, or newer guys as operators. I never once got laid off in that short of time. Sure, shops go under, or almost go under, thats just manufaturing in the U.S.. I remember training one young operator on OKumas in a large company. 2 weeks later he tells me he can do this job better than me ( i was the lead set up at the time). Then he spits a big bloody phlegm in to the machine. I asked WTF are you doing, and he replies don't worry, it just goes down the drain. Had no clue at all. He was fired 2 days later. If you ever want to survive in a shop, keep your head down, do whats asked of you, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, and eventually you'll be worth something.

i read the OP's first post and im not gonna read through 3 pages, but all i can tell you is to humble your self...keep your mouth shut, find things to do, let the company throw bigger and bigger challenges at you, dont ask for them, (you can volunteer if they ask, but dont be cocky) and you will go far. once i realized that, i made ALOT more money.

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