Dean Smith Grace Lathe Owners

Hello all DSG owners, I just bought one! As there is no place for English Heavey Iron I thought I would start this thread.
I have a 1953, 13x40, 5000lbs of elegance. I'm just finishing the process of cleaning 30 years of grime. Looks very nice underneath all the muck.
Like they say, this is "The Cadillac of Lathes", more appropriate would be "Rolls Royce". I'm guessing the Rolls Royce factory even had DSG lathes! So let's here from all of you and in particular anyone that has a machine pre 1955, as they changed the design at that time.
This particular machine has internal drive belts for the spindle which are no longer available. I would like to find out if anyone has overcome this problem.
Michael Moore
IMAGE(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/mmfw1/IMG_1088.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/mmfw1/IMG_1089.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/mmfw1/IMG_1090.jpg)

Well done, nice looking bit of kit, 2 1/2 ton is a fair starting point for a 13" lathe.
IIRC there were quite a few variations & options even on the same model & year.
Others will prob know about the belts,........ PM ers ''Tyroneshoelaces'' and ''Mark McGrath'' comes to mind, however this might start the ball rolling. Manuals etc on free download.
http://www.shamrockmachinery.com/DEA...ace_lathes.htm

Limy, thanks for the link. There were different options, but after 1954 they did a serious redesign. As you can see in the photo the motor is sticking way out to the left. The new design tucks the motor underneath the headstock. (much nicer) They also got rid of the internal drive belts and changed the chuck mount from their own "Fast Lock" system to the more common D1-6. The fast lock is fast but no taper for alignment. Also can't get any backing plates, I will have to make some.
Michael

Very nice...well done..

Hm Hell of a sturdy looking machine tool. I don't think I've ever seen a more stoutly built smaller lathe unless it was a Monarch EE.

I dont see any jacks or hold down bolt holes. It that what I call a "three point" machine? That is, a machine sufficiently rigid it was intened to mount on three points - two under the headstock and one iunder the tailstock end?

FYI;-
This guys heavily in to all things DS&G, sort of ignore the staock list, there's a LOT more. Although I've never dealt with him, he comes highly recommended by someone I trust and knows machine tools.
http://www.budgetmachinery.co.uk/

Michael,

That is "Rolls-Royce of Lathes", not that other lesser name, thanks!

I have spent some time on a similar size, but later model (the model with the feeds/threads changed by turning a knob, with pointer and chart behind a glass panel - beautiful!). What I recall mostly was that the controls were nicely placed and worked smoothly, nothing clunky. When it came to buying a lathe, I was sorely tempted by the DSG, but I went for a smaller, newer Graziano - not as smooth to operate (clunky feed control) but much faster (higher spindle speeds and on-the-fly speed changes).

I use a early 60's era Type 21 and I can't imagine a finer lathe ever being built than a DS&G. Overbuilt and very tough are common words used when describing one. They've been around since 1865.

Full parts service and technical support provided for every lathe manufactured by Dean Smith & Grace since 1945. The vast proportion of spares can be supplied from stock, with next day delivery, however should certain items or components not be readily available, our experienced Customer Service Department will endeavour to meet customer requirements in the shortest time possible.
Our team of factory engineers provide expert service support across the whole range of Dean Smith & Grace lathes and other quality machine tools.
Services provided include installation and relocation, on-site rebuilds and full factory rebuilds.

http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/
Anyone heard anything about their CNC lathes?

They must have had trouble deciding on a colour when painting it.... Looks to have had four colours on it over the years...

Hey, I looked away for a few moments....
I'll start with Forrest, the jacks are located behind the panels on the front , and exposed on the backside. The left panel on the front has the electrical switches inside and below the tailstock there is a very stout door which holds the spare threading gears.
The manual suggests that for "light duty" use you don't have to bolt her down! Only bolt her down if you are doing heavy offcenter turning.

Limy, thanks for the link I will check it out.

Jeff B, fine is the right word, 55 years old and still cuts within .0005 at 12" !!
I have been in contact with the spares person at DSG, that's how I found out the belts are no longer available (cry emoticon)
RC, yes at least five colors I have found so far, the guys at the Department of National Defence (Canada) sometimes have to make the shop look really nice. It appears that it was painted about every ten years or so....maybe in time with the Royal visits?
The original grey seems to be in good shape under all that other stuff, there's even baby blue on there, ugh!
Thanks for the replies....and how about some photo's from other DSG owners!!
Love the PM!
Michael

Michael,
Congratulations; that DS&G is a FINE lathe, and a heck of a lump of iron. I had thought of buying a baby DS&G before I bought my 10EE, an I/M would have pushed me over the edge. That really is a stout lathe.
Steve

Here are some pics of x2 DSGs I know of, the first one is mine, a 1307 x 40, made in 1978, weighs close to 3 ton :-
IMAGE(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h108/KBattenbough/DSCF0558.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h108/KBattenbough/DSCF0556.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h108/KBattenbough/DSCF0551.jpg)

And the second is my mates 13 x 42, made I believe in 1968, I actually prefer the ealier models with thier solid, rigid cast bottom trays.
IMAGE(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h108/KBattenbough/IMG_0353.jpg)
IMAGE(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h108/KBattenbough/IMG_0352.jpg)
Enjoy

KB

KB, I really like those pictures.
On the other hand this is a picture of "while working". It is a '59 model.
IMAGE(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh296/RDL33/DSG%201342/DSG13x42working.jpg)
Raymond

Below is a picture of a Dean smith and grace that is for sale at a local shop. They got another CNC and need the room so this has to go and soon . If any one is interested it is priced very low and the shop will load it on a truck or trailor free. If any one is interested you can contact me at [email protected] The lathe is a 17 by 36 and includes a 3 jaw and a steady rest that are not seen in the picture as well it has taper attachment

Attached


IMAGE(http://factorydaily.com/fdattachs/fdattachs2/112105031724570.jpg)

We used to jokingly call them Dean, Smith and Disgrace ! Seriously one of the finest lathes ever made. The feel of the controls is just superb and replacing parts is a pleasure, everything fits like a hand in a glove. Only "Holbrook" and "Cazenurve" ? in my experience comes near.
The C.N.C. lathes were good but I suspect " Monarch" had a lot of input by this time. Regards Tyrone.

[QUOTE=M. Moore]I'm guessing the Rolls Royce factory even had DSG lathes!
Rolls Royce did indeed use many DSG lathes in their factories. Furthermore, when RR were involved in setting up an overseas overhaul facility for their engines, they always recommended DSG lathes for the facility machine shop.

Like they say, this is "The Cadillac of Lathes", more appropriate would be "Rolls Royce".

Nice buy !
Haven't used that model, but the next one (both 13" and 17") They are definitely a velvet paw / iron glove proposition

They do have an unusual clasp-nut arrangement (at least, the following model did) where they swing closed like a clam closing, not like the Southbend, but instead about an axis parallel to the spindle.

It's great that they're still in business. I believe they will rebuild their manual lathes to original acceptance limits - if you've got a few tens of thousands to spare....

Re your comment above - who was the American (presumably of Irish origins) who used to say that the Cadillac was 'the Rolls Royce of automobiles' ?

Mighty impressive lathes! Someday I intend to have "a real lathe" Al.

Do those near new looking DSG's actually get used or are they just to look at???

I'm running a DSG 21 x 72 myself. It's a very fine machine. It had been hit by a numbskull with a forklift. The motor was broken, and the bolt-on casting base under the headstock was also broken. I took it in trade against a 25" machine.
I adapted a modern Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled (TEFC) motor to it. I fabricated another base under the headstock (old one unbolted) and have run it for several years. I also converted the electrical to American components. If I recall correctly it's a 1952 machine. No finer lathe than a DSG was ever built.
I'm probably going to sell it soon, if anyone is interested. Loading is no problem. I want a bigger swing and bigger spindle hole. (present one is 3 5/8") It's in place running now.
Another thing I did was removed the turret tool post and made it accept an Aloris DA. I will be using the DA I have with the next lathe (which I think I've found)
Your 13" is a fine lathe. It even makes my Axelson look a touch light!
Richard

Nice lathes, all of them. Nice buy Michael, it's good to know that there are still lathes like that in this neck of the woods. Dave

Just beautiful. Thank you for sharing the photos. I love to see fine old machines well kept. There is always something beautiful about fine English machines that take them beyond their technology. Jaguar XKE sport cars. Brough Superior Motorcycles. Rolls Royce Merlin Engines and DS&G Lathes. Timeless classics that look great decades later. The hard part is finding them in great shape in the first place!

Nice Lathe. I've got a Model 13-1 (13 x 42), and the only problem I've had with it is figuring out which lever to move to get the correct pitch/feed (DS&G owners will know what I'm talking about).
I noticed you're in Canada also. I get my DS&G parts from Hove Machine Services located in Wasaga Beach, Ontario. Dave's a decent guy to deal with (he's the DS&G parts man for Ontario).
As a side bar in other threads people have been looking for a decent oil gun for their European equipment and Hove got me a DS&G replacement oil gun for $48.00Can. I thought it was a good deal considering it came from the Uk.
Dave

Oh man, thanks for posting the pics. They go straight to my tool porn collection.

Nice Lathe. I've got a Model 13-1 (13 x 42), and the only problem I've had with it is figuring out which lever to move to get the correct pitch/feed (DS&G owners will know what I'm talking about).
Dave

Unfortunately not an owner, but I've used them,...bit like a Wurlitzer aren't they

Nice Lathe. I've got a Model 13-1 (13 x 42), and the only problem I've had with it is figuring out which lever to move to get the correct pitch/feed (DS&G owners will know what I'm talking about)....
As a side bar in other threads people have been looking for a decent oil gun for their European equipment and Hove got me a DS&G replacement oil gun for $48.00Can. I thought it was a good deal considering it came from the Uk.
Dave

Dave thank you for the oil gun information. Michael and I discussed the pneumatic version but neither of us has anything to show that I know of.
The chart selector gives you the required information:
D or E on one lever
A - B - C
Thread IN or Out
Normal or Coarse
Threading engaged.
Make you have the right change wheels.
Yeh, there are quite a few permutations and combinations but then only one is right for the job.
Raymond

Wow, what a machine!! Looks like something I'd love to have some day. Right after I win the lottery.
Here's one on Ebay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...link:middle:us
Ryan

Below is a picture of a Dean smith and grace that is for sale at a local shop. They got another CNC and need the room so this has to go and soon . If any one is interested it is priced very low and the shop will load it on a truck or trailor free. If any one is interested you can contact me at [email protected] The lathe is a 17 by 36 and includes a 3 jaw and a steady rest that are not seen in the picture as well it has taper attachment

I have almost the identical lathe to that one, maybe just a little older. Mine has seen a lot of service and I need to spend some time on sorting it out, but it's still a nice machine to use and does what I need.
Tim

Below is a picture of a Dean smith and grace that is for sale at a local shop. They got another CNC and need the room so this has to go and soon . If any one is interested it is priced very low and the shop will load it on a truck or trailor free. If any one is interested you can contact me at [email protected] The lathe is a 17 by 36 and includes a 3 jaw and a steady rest that are not seen in the picture as well it has taper attachment

The 17 36 in the pic appears to have an extra feature I've not seen before, a shaft coming from the front of the head stock, passing through the saddle wings to a cantilevered bracket on the TS end. Anyone know what it's for?

The 17 36 in the pic appears to have an extra feature I've not seen before, a shaft coming from the front of the head stock, passing through the saddle wings to a cantilevered bracket on the TS end. Anyone know what it's for?

Mine has the feed & leadscrew reverse lever at that point on the headstock, maybe it's something to do with a rapid threading facility, or just an extension of that control onto the carriage?
Tim

The 17 36 in the pic appears to have an extra feature I've not seen before, a shaft coming from the front of the head stock, passing through the saddle wings to a cantilevered bracket on the TS end. Anyone know what it's for?

Thread relieving attachment ? If I told you any more I'd have to kill you.Regards Tyrone.

Thread relieving attachment ? If I told you any more I'd have to kill you.Regards Tyrone.

A (hob & tap) relieving attachment was certainly an option on some DSG models, but my money is still on it operating the leadscrew clutch. It's a single tooth dog clutch, handy for awkward threading jobs, and if you look closely at the bar in question there seem to be two moveable clamps one either side of the carriage. My guess is that these are adjustable stops which disengage the clutch if the carriage contacts them.
Tim

My money is on a single point dog clutch also.You can see the adjustable trip collars on the shaft.The relieving attachment drive comes out the headstock parallel to and behind the spindle.

Wow, what a machine!! Looks like something I'd love to have some day. Right after I win the lottery.
Here's one on Ebay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...link:middle:us
Ryan

Ryan,
Don't touch the eBay machine. In his first listing last year he made all kinds of claims to which I made a response. Now his shipping price is meant to trap someone. He has never run the machine so who knows what condition it really is in.
Raymond

Nice looking but probably well used DSG for sale here.
What sort of chuck does it have??? http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/?advert_id=3575

Ryan,
Don't touch the eBay machine. In his first listing last year he made all kinds of claims to which I made a response. Now his shipping price is meant to trap someone. He has never run the machine so who knows what condition it really is in.
Raymond

I appreciate the advice, Raymond! I wasn't going to have anything to do with it anyway...just wanted to see if anything was out there.
Ryan

I agree with those who say it looks very much like a shaft for leadscrew reversing from the apron, using a single tooth clutch in the headstock.

The shaft both turns and displaces endwise, either action causing the clutches to toggle to the other threading direction. Normally feeds can also be reversed the same way.

Stop collars on the shaft allow threading up to a shoulder, and the lever turns the shaft, allowing manual reversing of the threading direction at will, without disengaging the half nuts, without losing the registration with the thread being cut (even if a different 'language' from the leadscrew) and without stopping the spindle.

I've often wondered why DSG didn't offer this, which was available on most toolroom lathes of this quality level, but from the look of this photo it seems they probably did, at least on some models.

Nice looking but probably well used DSG for sale here.
What sort of chuck does it have??? http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/?advert_id=3575

I'd go with a Taylor chuck, seem to be quite highly rated, with which I'd agree with, mine'seons old and still does all I ask of it.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/taylor/page6.html

Thank You for the chuck information Limy. My DS&G came with the same type of chuck,but nobody around here had been able to identify the chuck for me. The university where I purchased the lathe were the original owners of the lathe and had never installed the chuck in 43 years. I've played with it since purchasing the lathe and the low run out amazes me.
Dave

here is one in Montreal, they just bought it at a government auction for $2100.00 Kanuck bucks. Asking price is $6500.00! How is that for retail markup?
http://www.seguinmach.com/seguin/pro...oducts_id=1368

Just a mention for those in the UK - I have a spare fixed steady for a 13" DSG (older models), I'm looking for the same for my 17". I've adapted a TOS steady to fit, but it would be nice to have the proper thing.
Tim

Appologies to all who suggested the shaft was part of a quick threading device, I'm sure you're right, it's in a bit of a vulnerable position though.
Just looking through a brochure I've just obtained from a company I've dealt with in the past- West Point Machine Tools . They've got two lovely DSG's for sale , one ex university for under £ 8,000. They've also got an "Edgewick" that must be 40 yrs old but looks like it just came out of the crate, ex- university again for £1,500 ! One or two for Milacron- " Weiler" toolroom lathe at £1,950 and a " Hardinge " HL-V for £2,750 plus a " Myford" HA Cylindrical grinder with drop down internal for £2,950, all in super condition. The brochure is choc full of bargains.
Site is at www. west-point.co.uk , read it and weep if you live in the U.S. Regards Tyrone.

Hey, good to hear from everybody, I have been away for a few days.
Somebody is going to get a good deal from Nova Scotia!!
It's late and I will respond better tomorrow.
Thanks
Michael

Nice Lathe. I've got a Model 13-1 (13 x 42), and the only problem I've had with it is figuring out which lever to move to get the correct pitch/feed (DS&G owners will know what I'm talking about).
I noticed you're in Canada also. I get my DS&G parts from Hove Machine Services located in Wasaga Beach, Ontario. Dave's a decent guy to deal with (he's the DS&G parts man for Ontario).
As a side bar in other threads people have been looking for a decent oil gun for their European equipment and Hove got me a DS&G replacement oil gun for $48.00Can. I thought it was a good deal considering it came from the Uk.
Dave

Dave, what year is your machine? I've spoken with Dave at Hove machine (I ordered a manual), and I will call him about the oiler.
Thanks for the info.
Does anyone here know where I could source a new impellar for the suds pump (coolant pump). The one on my machine is badly corroded. There is probably a similar impellar out there somewhere just need to know where to look. I have all the size info if needed.
I was really drooling over those near new lathes.....especially after spending nearly 40 hours cleaning mine!
Now I know why some people have more than one lathe....when another DSG comes up for sale I start calculating the shipping costs!
So far lot's of responses but nobody yet with the same machine as mine. I know there must be somebody out there with and oldy. Speak up!
What would the best way to "alert" everyone on the pm regarding scrap machines? If anyone ever heard of a DSG going to the scrap yard and it was as old as mine I would be very interested in some parts.
Love the PM!
Michael

Hi
somebody has seen these machines somewhere?
IMAGE(http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp306/transiente/Dean_Smith__Grace_1.jpg)
Greetings
Ivan

Hi
somebody has seen these machines somewhere?
IMAGE(http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp306/transiente/Dean_Smith__Grace_1.jpg)
Greetings
Ivan

I've never seen one of those, looks as though it might have been quite sophisticated with backgearing & power downfeed.
The first lathe I ever owned, in the 1960s, was a very old DSG which might have been contemporary with that drill. It was much more lightly built than my 17", but with a long bed on three pedestals. Flat belt drive, I ran it from an Armstrong-Siddeley diesel engine which had come off a pickup baler.
The spindle bearings were simple bronze shells, a bit the worse for wear though I did tidy them up a bit. The biggest problem with it was that the feeds were terribly coarse, it must have just been used for roughing work. The only other lathe of its type that I've seen had an extra gear reduction in the feed train, if I had mine now I would have devised something similar for it but at that time it would have been a bit beyond me to do it.
It wasn't on my own premises and I gave it away to a museum when I lost the use of the site, but it more than likely went for scrap in the end.
Tim

Hi Micheal,
My lathe is a 1965 model, that's the year the University of Waterloo received the lathe anyways. Was pretty lucky, these guys kept everything. Have the original receipt, the little hanging card that tells you the basic steps to set up your lathe, they even kept the little can of touch up paint!
Dave

Dave,
Post a pic so we can drool over your good fortune!
Just the opposite of mine, they didn't keep anything with the lathe....
so now I have to search and spend more money......

Hi Micheal,
My lathe is a 1965 model, that's the year the University of Waterloo received the lathe anyways. Was pretty lucky, these guys kept everything. Have the original receipt, the little hanging card that tells you the basic steps to set up your lathe, they even kept the little can of touch up paint!
Dave

Bump! Hoping for more replies. We need more DSG owners to step forward, there is no shame in having Heavy English Iron.
Michael

Bump! Hoping for more replies. We need more DSG owners to step forward, there is no shame in having Heavy English Iron.
Michael

Wish we could afford them mate, there's a recession over here

I had a 13" x 42" DSG,toolroom version with the solid base.Nice machine but the crosslide dovetails are a bit narrow leading to the toolpost nodding on heavy interupted cuts.I did like the power drilling attachment which clamps to the crosslide dovetails also the nice long travel on the tailstock barrel.
Mine was used mainly for facing sawn billets prior to going into a cnc.As this was heavy dirty work( 6" dia @ 1000 rpm x 0.012" feed/rev) I felt the machine was a bit light for this use and swapped it for a DSG Type 16 turret lathe.This is better suited to the type of work especially as the turret has power cross feed also.
Mark.

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